PB - Originally, I'd attended Whitchurch in 1997 and really enjoyed it. It made me think seriously about putting a band or studio project together to make more intricate music than is the norm for the UK. However, although I contacted a number of musicians afterwards, nothing really came together until the following summer when I saw a newsgroup posting from Phil about his solo album. It sounded interesting, so I sent him an email suggesting we get together to exchange ideas. Since it was just a couple of weeks before Whitchurch 1998, we decided it was a good place to meet.

That was the point when the conception took place, as it were. The gestation was to take quite a bit longer.

BB - Do you all live in the same area?

PB - We're all about 40 minutes drive from each other except Mark, who lives a bit further oop North.

BB - And has this made recording the debut difficult or easier?

PB - Probably easier, strangely. It meant we had to rehearse individually using sequencing software and midi files in order to get to a certain level of familiarity with the material before meeting up to rehearse as a band.

I think the first few rehearsals would have been very hard going if we were all unsure of our parts. As it was, with Wolfgang's late arrival in the band, we ended up having only about six or seven full rehearsals before recording the album. Having got used to playing individually also made it less strange to record the parts separately.

BB - From your newsletter, TK sounded like they were eager to record something. I also read somewhere that Phil Mercy has built his own studio at home to do the recording. Was this a problem for the band, waiting for it to be built?

PB - No, the timing worked out very well, Phil had the equipment and was up to speed with it at just the right time. We were only just ready with the playing by then.

BB - How did you find recording the different parts on separate days? Did this remove some of the live feeling you had gained in rehearsals?

PB - I think that's up to the individual listener to decide. I think it sounds quite live and 'on the edge', but that's just my view. We deliberately didn't iron out every little wrinkle in the playing. You feel very exposed when recording each part, as you hear every little fluff, but I'd be happy to adopt the same approach for the next one.

BB - I heard Mark Kelly of Marillion say recently that "long does not equal good" in relation to song length. With many long songs on your album how would you explain the benefit of having songs over six minutes?

PB - I would agree, "long does not equal good", but it doesn't equal bad, either. It's down to the development of the material and how much of interest there is to say. Obviously, in literature, what works for 'War and Peace' would not work for 'See Spot Run'. In music, if you're yawning and looking at your watch before the song ends then it's probably too long. Conversely, I don't think a 4 minute format would have worked for any of the material on 'Head'. Don't rule it out for new stuff, though.

BB - The debut album is called "Head". Why did you give it this title?

PB - We were into the idea of a short title with several possible meanings. The impression the name makes then depends on what the listener brings to the party. It also gave me a theme for the CD photography.

BB - Those of us who have the album have been a little disappointed that there were no lyrics? It's not always easy to hear the lyrics. Why did you decide to leave them out?

PB - Again, if you hear the odd phrase, you build up your own impression of the atmosphere and feelings in the song, which could be different from someone else's. If you read the lyrics on the cover, it pins it down a lot more. We wanted to allow for a more free interpretation. I think of it as the verbal equivalent of 'pen and ink wash' technique in painting. You look closely at the details in a good pen and ink painting and it's just a lot of squiggles, step back a bit and it's suddenly stonework, or it's a bush or something.

BB - What inspired you to write "T.A.N.U.S."? It sounds like Simon Boys was having a bad day after a night on the tiles?

PB - Phil wrote T.A.N.U.S, it's one of the pieces he scared me with at Whitchurch. He wrote the lyrics as well, as a joke, but Simon liked them and decided to keep them. They're very tongue in cheek.

BB - Who writes the music and lyrics for the songs?

PB - So far, it's been Phil, Simon and me, with most of the lyrics being written by Simon and the lion's share of the music coming from Phil, with input from Simon and me. With 'Ultragravy', I wrote the music and Phil and Simon reinterpreted it a bit. Mind you, everybody contributes to the end result. With different personnel, all the songs would have been different. That's why there's no individual writing or arrangement credits on the CD.

BB - Some of the lyrics seem to have personal meaning. Do the songs relate to real events in the bands life?

PB - Seeing as we're not dealing with total fantasy storytelling, I think it would be difficult to get completely away from personal experience. I don't think anything has been plucked straight out of anyone's diary, though.

BB - You've put the album out independently. Was this an easy decision and what was the reasoning behind it?

PB - Yes it was. We have full control, we're not paying a percentage to a label or a publishing house, we can do as we please musically. I can't think of a better scenario for a prog rock band.

BB - How has the album been received? In terms of response, sales, and so on?

PB - The reviews have been overwhelmingly positive. We had just one reviewer who didn't like it at all, but he seems so far to have been the exception. We're also on various prog rock radio show playlists around the world, which was a pleasant surprise to me, I hadn't thought about that possibility, as we have very little prog rock on UK radio.

We've had a good initial response, saleswise. Several distributors around the world have bought stock for resale and we've had a good number of orders from people on Mark's mailing list. I'm now expecting a lull until various prog rock magazines come out with adverts and reviews.

BB - Many have said this is a new from of 'prog' with different time signatures and influences. How do you think that makes a difference when others have said that 'non-mainstream' prog uses non-standard time signatures anyway?

PB - I think it's all highly amusing. We write music that excites us to play and to listen to. I think of it as prog because of the characteristics it shares with other prog rock bands I like. We try to avoid sounding derivative of bands with which we are familiar, but it's highly possible we sound just like bands none of us have heard of. All we can do is keep moving onward on our own musical voyage of discovery.

If people want to discuss the pros and cons of how 'new' the music is, that's fine, but it's all 'new' to us when it's written, otherwise we change it or abandon it.

BB - How do you think "Head" epitomises your present and future direction?

PB - It's an opening statement. The 'Head' sound will always be a part of our musical palette, but we intend to expand our range. The next CD will be more varied, I hope to be working some woodwind playing into the new material, Wolfgang has started writing stuff, so his influences will work their way in to the melange. There may be some weirder stuff.

BB - You are writing new material for a live set at present. Will this be the same as material on "Head" or are you seeking to move on?

PB - We don't intend to repeat ourselves, musically, so new material will bring in more variation. We will be playing all the tracks on 'Head', plus the new material as we get it ready. When we have too much material for one gig, we'll have to start rotating songs.

BB - When are you planning to go out on the road for a few gigs? Will you be doing an 'extensive' tour or just a few gigs?

PB - We all have full time careers outside music, otherwise we couldn't afford to play prog rock, so it will always be a few gigs here and there, I'm afraid.

BB - Many people who like prog live outside the South East but get little chance to see it live? Are you going to try to reach this audience at all?

PB - Yes, we'll be going to great lengths to reach isolated pockets of prog friendly people.

BB - Will going out on the road be more fun than recording?

PB - Probably, recording was a bit 'head down and get it right', but gigging can be a good laugh. Obviously, you concentrate on playing well, but you're only on stage for a couple of hours.

BB - Do you feel that 'prog' still has life left in it now that musical styles are changing or do you feel there is still a niche for you?

PB - I love this music, others do too. While that's true it won't die. Anyway, I'd be doing this if we didn't sell a single CD. It's not something I worry about.

BB - Do you have a fan club?

PB - No, would you like to start one? Joking apart, we have a mailing list and a website for disseminating information, so a fan club wouldn't really serve any purpose. We're not a teeny bop band, some of us are quite old and ugly. <grin>

BB - What was the idea behind the 'tour' T-shirt?

PB - Since we'll never be in a position to do a world tour, we thought we'd have a bit of a laugh. All the 'venues' are real places, they just have rude sounding names. Schoolboy humour, really, but it's the kind of thing that people remember.

BB - What do you see as the next step?

PB - Gigging around the UK, possibly a weeks worth of gigs in the US later in the year if CD sales permit. We'll also be recording new material as and when we have it ready.

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What's Cooking In The Thieves' Kitchen ?

A new UK band is born. Ian Oakley from The Bathtub Of Adventures chats to Mark Robotham about the new band, album and the general state of the current UK progressive music scene.

I.O - To anyone that has not heard Thieves' Kitchen, how would you describe your music?

M.R - How would I describe TK? You can't always hum along to it, you can't always tap your foot to it. It's rock without the 4/4 riffs, it's jazz without the horn section. It'll soothe you, it'll scare you - but more than anything, it's dangerous, intelligent, and they'd never play us on Radio 2. In short - it's truly progressive rock.

I.O - How was the band brought together?

M.R - Well, I personally certainly wasn't instrumental (ha!) in bringing the band together - I simply got lucky. Paul and Phil, our bassist and guitarist, met by chance at the Whitchurch festival in 1998 and found they had a lot in common musically. Phil had long known Simon, the vocalist, so the hunt was on for a drummer and keyboard player. Paul was aware of the demise of GLD (Grey Lady Down) and tracked me down. One listen to a tape convinced me that there was no way I'd EVER be able to play this stuff, which is probably why I got in quick, before we could find an adequate keyboard player, so that by the time we did I'd be considered a permanent fixture! So far, the game plan seems to be working!

The 5th man - Wolfgang - took a hell of a lot of finding. It eventually took a lucky ad of ours in Kingfisher Music in Fleet to achieve that. Never could we have found a more appropriate player, after many false starts - like Phil, Wolfgang's influences are probably more jazz than rock, thus giving us a wonderful balance between the two forms and the ability to fearlessly dive headlong into either when opportunities permit!

I.O - Where did the unusual name come from?

M.R - The name was my doing - it clearly lodged itself in the back of my mind when I took an American friend of mine, a first-time visitor to this country, for a river trip along the Thames in London. Thanks to the tide being high, we passed under Tower Bridge and swung back round to dock - at which point the tour guide pointed out the location of Fagin's Thieves' Kitchen in Oliver Twist. Some four months later, we were looking first and foremost for a band name that had not knowing been used before - we checked and double checked in the National Band Register before a brainstorming session led to the one name that was an easily memorable, well known phrase and yet appeared never to have been used for a band's name before!

With our tongues in our cheeks too, it was fun to choose a name that openly invites sarcasm regarding plagiarism when I can think of no less plagiaristic band than TK, within the prog sphere, from England for many, many years!

I.O - Tell me a little about each member.

M.R - Alphabetically by surnames - Paul is the arty, cerebral one in the band - very much a lateral thinker and one who will invariably choose the least obvious approach to any problem. He approached the bass, logically enough, from classical training on woodwind! And yes, we're determined to make him get his oboe out on album number 2... Simon is a full blooded, honest rock singer with a reputation for being completely insane on stage, which I'm yet to enjoy. One of the biggest failings of UK prog music - with a very few honourable exceptions like Gary Chandler - is a very poor standard of vocals. I've been lucky enough personally, first with Martin in GLD and now with Simon, never to have had to suffer from that!

Wolfgang had never even been to England until about 9 months ago, when he accepted a company transfer to this country. He came with a better grasp of spoken English than me, though, and is already developing a British sense of humour to match! TK is actually Wolfgang's first prog band - he's a very much from the jazz school and has a wonderfully dextrous feel to his playing, yet with a grounding in the classic keyboard sounds of the prog genre.

Words invariably fail me when I come to try to describe Phil. He's quite simply one of the most astonishing guitar talents in the UK today - Blisteringly fast, yet full of feel. Very much in the vain of Steve Vai, Joe Satriani or Allan Holdsworth. Yet, being a Brummie, he has not a trace of arrogance and is one of the nicest guys I've ever met! I truly feel privileged to be working with him.

Me - I like beer, curry, and played in a band that, through sheer hard work and lack of personal pretension, become quite popular in the prog field despite breaking few boundaries, except in the latter part of our career. If nothing else, it probably gave me just enough self-confidence to have the balls to even attempt to play some of Phil's more technical compositions. I'm generally probably of more value to a band and have to bluff less as a manager rather than as a drummer.

I.O - I notice that with this album you personally have taken up an electronic drum kit. Is there a reason for this, and what advantages does it allow you?

M.R My Pintech kit? As we decided to take control of every aspect of this album's recording and distribution ourselves, Phil spent about £6,000 on a home studio set-up. Now, nice as Hungerford High Street is, it's not exactly secluded. Recording acoustic drums was always going to be a problem. So when Phil raised the idea of going electric, I had a fairly big redundancy cheque in my pocket and figured I'd humour him and lay out some cash - although much less than he'd spent on the studio. I figured I'd use the Pintech gear once, and then it would rust in peace in the attic...

Nah. Won't work out that way. Look at the advantages - it's not a "click-click" machine. It sounds EXACTLY like 'real' drums. I can play at home through headphones. It takes half the time to set up. When we play live, I'll give the engineer a pair of leads, knowing full well that the source is perfect, rather than sitting around drooling going 'thwack...thwack... thwack' for hours on end and getting lots of dodgy buzzes and rings. The pads are far more responsive than acoustic drums - no need to shift a huge column of air before the top head stresses and bounces your stick back at you. The samples I trigger from the DM-5's are gorgeous... no buzzes or rattles! Yet, the actual playing of the kit is pretty much identical to the 'real' thing. And to the Luddites - I can only the make the point that somehow assuming there was something 'wrong' about a drummer using an electric kit - as if he was somehow cheating (and don't forget that Bill Bruford was very much the pioneer of electric drums in this country!) - would be like restricting Wakeman or Emerson to nothing but piano and Hammond. No electrics, no synthesisers allowed! Where's the difference? OK, how many people still use clockwork alarm clocks? No one - you have electric ones, right? Well - insisting that only acoustic drums are valid is like saying that not only is the clockwork clock more reliable, it sounds better, too! Yeah, right!

I.O - There seem to be very few truly fresh ideas in 90s 'prog' rock music, especially in the UK. Is it really so difficult to break new ground in this style of music?

M.R - Certainly this is an area where I feel the UK deserves to be castigated. We're brought our demise upon ourselves. We fundamentally invented progressive rock, heavy metal, and numerous other forms. Yet - if you go to a pub or club - the lifeblood of the breaking band circuit - you'll now hear nothing but tribute bands. I'd love to know who these people think they'll be plagiarising in 20 years time if the current trend continues, as no-one who writes original material will be able to get a gig!

It's the same with the radio. Even if anyone over here does play a Floyd track, for example, it's ALWAYS 'Another Brick'. Anyone who's been to the US will know how vastly superior their radio is - where rock music still gets played! And I'm told it's the same in Sweden. Any wonder, then, that these countries currently lead the world in prog innovation?

The other point to be made is that it's always been considered musicians' music. In the early 70's, when prog was fashionable, it was easy for a musician to earn enough money playing what he loved to be able to practice at length, become extremely skilled on his instrument. and use that knowledge to push back boundaries. Nowadays, if you're attempting to be a pro musician, you either know a hatful of Oasis songs or 'Sultans Of Swing'. If you don't, you don't eat. So no one with an inclination towards prog really hones their playing to be up to the challenges of the music we love - and thus they settle into safe, predictable neo-prog...

I.O - You yourself come from the UK "Neo- Prog" band Grey Lady Down. Do you feel that Thieves' Kitchen is in any way a progression of their music?

M.R - No. GLD made a rod for its own back with the neo sound of our first two albums. Moving too far away from that would have alienated the bedrock of the band's support, so a new project was really the only answer for me.

I.O - Your website mentions the word "complex" a number of times. Do you think this is an important aspect of Thieves' Kitchen's music?

M.R - As I said before, progressive music has always by definition involved skilled musicians attempting to break a few rules, stretch a few barriers. It's unashamedly muso's music - or should be, in its purest form. And that may sound self-indulgent, but when I watch the average prog crowd tapping along with my patterns or playing air guitar, it's perfectly clear that most are frustrated musicians! If non-complex is neo, then complex is a word I'm proud of, yeah, when I watch people's faces when they first hear the middle section of 'Mute' and clearly haven't got a CLUE what's going on! And believe me, I was just the same the first 20 times I heard it...

I.O - So you feel that Thieves' Kitchen are producing "true" Progressive rock - Putting the "progress" element back?

M.R Absolutely. Few outside jazz would be attempting to take on some of the material we are, and yet it's all underpinned by a hard driving rock feel and some great tunes! The diversity of influences within the band also means that none of us will be frightened to take on anything which the others may choose to throw at them. Put simply, we're pushing back boundaries because we've refused to set any for ourselves.

I.O Now that sounds like a great attitude to take but I feel I must take up something - A quote from your site. 'Musically the band is clearly in the vanguard of the current prog scene. The safe path of major key, 4/4 'neo' prog has been avoided in favour of virtuosity, experimentation, impossibly fast unison riffs, baroque fugueing and bizarre time signatures - but not for one moment at the expense of melody. With two songs on the CD running at over 16 minutes, the band are moving in those circles once occupied by the likes of King Crimson, National Health, Frank Zappa, Gentle Giant, It Bites and Allan Holdsworth rather than Genesis or Marillion.'

A lot of bands are derided for being plagiarists, "regressive" rather than "progressive". You have stated that the band is in the vanguard of the current scene but in that above paragraph you have mentioned 30-year-old bands as an influence of Thieves Kitchen. Aren't you therefore taking a risk of inviting the same criticism?

M.R - It's impossible to be a musician and not have influences. If you sit a child in a padded cell for its early life, it'll have no concept of what music is. But in reality, from the first thing we hear we're sucking in influences, and some of those will invariably get regurgitated, if not melodically then in form. And there are only 12 notes, after all! It's really what you do with those influences. Progressive rock has always been regressive by definition! It's only progressive in its combination of influences - the assimilation of classical music or jazz, for example. You only have to look at the pioneering bands, the likes of ELP or King Crimson for example, to see that.

My problem is with those - particularly in the UK - who just churn out the same hackneyed Genesis "neo prog" pastiches time after time. There's nothing wrong, surely, with taking a leaf from the books of some of the other bands who've approached the genre from a very different angle? Furthermore, it's not even good marketing to try to tell people that a band doesn't sound like any other band. Firstly it's rarely true and secondly; people find it very hard to cope without a frame of reference! Notwithstanding that, though, I think people will find it hard to pick up too many other bands within our sound. Reviews always have a bit where they say 'they sound like X or Y'. I'll be intrigued to see what names people pull out of the hat for us.

I.O - Your website displays a great deal of "confidence" in your abilities and the band's future. Given that the band has not yet performed live or released an album, do you feel that there is a risk that you are setting yourself up for "a fall"?

M.R We're not going to go out and say 'ermm... we're Thieves' Kitchen - we're not really sure about our stuff, and if you don't like it, we're really sorry we bothered you'.... Yes, there'll be people who don't like it - that's normal. But I think few people, certainly in the UK, will criticise us for having the balls to try something a bit different... US listeners, however, have viewed UK prog as a lost cause for quite some time. It'll take a band who are really prepared to stand up and make a noise to break through that. And, as I strongly believe the US will be our best market, that's why I've pitched it as I have....

It's useful too having had a good grounding in the progressive field through a band like GLD. It does bring it home to you that, particularly in the US and Japan; there is a market for something more adventurous - yet many of the prog contacts remain the same. I've a feeling we'll be embraced fairly warmly....

I.O - How would you respond if the album is badly received?

M.R - Criticism happens! No one should present an art form of any kind to the world without accepting that some people won't like it. But whatever happens, we'll go on making music that we love and hoping that it eventually lands in the heads and hearts of the prog fraternity. I can't see us compromising for the sake of mass acceptance. After all, if anyone's attempting to do that, they really shouldn't be in prog in the first place!

I.O - Currently bands like yourselves are known only to the tiny clique of fans interested in the so called "Progressive" rock scene. Do you ever see a return to a commercially successful prog scene as we had in the early 70s?

M.R - Frankly, it probably won't happen - again, certainly not in this country. The stranglehold that tribute bands and our incredibly narrow spectrum of radio has over the fledgling music fan means that our genre never gets a break. As I said just now, we won't compromise to achieve commercial success - really, it's the market that needs to change. But at present, we're far too conservative here for that to happen. It's not a bright prognosis.

I.O - You have made mention before that you see the band's success or breakthrough as happening in the American market. Why? Do you think that country has a more "open" attitude to "new" music?

M.R - Yes, undoubtedly. The first time I ever went to the US just over four years ago, the very first thing that impressed me was their radio. So many channels, and maybe 50% of them rock orientated. Instead of hearing 'Another Brick...', as I said earlier, you're just as likely to hear the first five parts of 'Shine On You Crazy Diamond' - uninterrupted by banal chatter! People grow up with a consciousness of rock music, and it's a much more viable genre. The biggest crying shame of all is that we fundamentally invented progressive music, heavy metal, and so many other forms of the general family of 'rock' - yet it's completely ignored by the media here! What's up with that? I can easily imagine TK being played on the radio in the US. Never in a million years here!

I.O - As I know you are aware, in America the largest underground movement is the so-called "Jam band" genre. Focusing on a large part of a live set to be purely improvised. Do you feel this could be a way to "progress" your own music?

M.R Nice idea, and maybe it will come, but I think you have to develop a very sound empathy for your fellow musicians' feel before you can attempt that...  Bear in mind that 73/74 Crimson is probably my favourite band ever, and I do have enormous respect for those who will take that on, but...

I.O - Again, improvised, as well as Progressive, music seems to be generally poorly supported in European countries like the UK. What are your thoughts on this?

M.R - For me, it really goes back to the radio and live circuit thing we were talking about earlier. To draw an analogy - up till I was 15, I'd never had Indian food. My Mum told me it was all red hot, comprised of bits of cats and dogs, and that I'd die of food poisoning and I wouldn't like it. Because I'd never experienced it, I assumed I wouldn't like it because of what I'd been fed at home - literally and figuratively. Now, you can't keep me away from it - it was love at first taste at 16! Similarly, if we feed kids Westlife, Phil Collins and some bunch of Europoppers with a drum machine, how can we expect them to open their ears and embrace the unknown?

As for improvisation - let's face it, in the UK, it simply wouldn't work - there isn't the appreciation for attempting to create on the spot. If there's no readily recognisable theme or structure, we're off down the pub - coz we haven't learned to cope with it. Very few current rock bands - with the notable exceptions of the Flower Kings and Phish - will even attempt it. We'd be capable, but we'd just be seen as vanishing up our own bums, the validity would unfortunately be lost even on a so-called educated prog crowd. People don't take as many drugs these days as they did when Zappa was doing 'Tinseltown Rebellion'!

I.O - What current bands do you really like and who would you recommend?

M.R - My own musical loves are far from just prog ones - But in our genre, I would have immediately said the Flower Kings and Spock's Beard - even though SB are definitely becoming a bit Radio Two, for all their compositional and technical brilliance - until about a week ago...

At our mastering session, I heard something so fresh that it blew my ears off.  Just watch out for a band called 'Nought' from Oxford. Imagine if Robert Fripp and Frank Zappa were asked to write the score for a Bond film together. There's little more to be said! Their album, 'The New Themes', will be out very shortly....

From recent years I'd also have to recommend the brief flash of genius that was Anglagard, and also their compatriots Anekdoten, who've now outgrown the wonderful if somewhat naive Crimson pastiche of their first album and moved on to something very dark and nasty indeed. Oh, and some band called Thieves' Kitchen, too!

I.O - If you were to pick one to play to a new listener, from any of the recordings you have made (GLD or otherwise) which would they be?

M.R - From a personal point of view? TK is clearly the pinnacle of my modest achievements as a musician to date, so it'd have to be a TK track.. And almost certainly the opener on the album, 'Mute'. I will still never forget the feeling of terror I had when I first heard it, that I was going to be expected to play THAT... and also one of our many keyboard auditionees, who pronounced it quite simply 'impossible - for anyone, not just me'!

I.O Finally. The desert island question - If you were put on a desert island and could only take 5 albums/ CDs with you what would they be?

M.R - I guess I'd have to choose the five albums that had lived with me the longest and from which I've got the most long-term pleasure, rather than something which captured my attention last week... given that, the majority of these albums would have been on my list five years ago and probably will be in another five. In some kind of rough order, #1 to #5...

Jewel - Pieces Of You - because everyone should have an album that strikes such a chord in their heart that they can't listen to it in public.

Tusk - Fleetwood Mac - for the balls to go out and make exactly the album they wanted to after the multi-million selling 'Rumours', instead of just pitching in for more megabucks. Such a warm and genuine album and, I'd always thought, unsurpassable until I heard our Alaskan friend above...

Starless And Bible Black - King Crimson - most people got into Crimson through 'In The Court...', and battled with some of the latter stuff. I was lucky enough to hear 'SABB' when I was 15, and it entranced me immediately and still does, dark as it is. Hard to choose though between this album and 'Lark's Tongues' or 'Red' - all are beyond brilliant.

Queen 2 - Queen - I think this was the second album I ever owned. Before Freddie Mercury turned them into a vaudeville band from 'Day At The Races' onwards, they were capable of some of the most inspiring music I've ever heard.

Blind - The Icicle Works - for perfect pop songwriting personified. In my opinion, Ian McNabb is an unsung genius far beyond McCartney or Lennon.

Thanks for having me!  

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Wondrous Stories / CRS 16 May 2000

Dave Pearson talks to Phil Mercy, guitarist with Thieves' Kitchen

DP - Tell me something of the band members' backgrounds and how you come together as a band?

PM - Simon Boys (vocals) has a heavyish musical background, his favourite band was the Chili Peppers and his first major band was an outfit called (wait for it) Prime Evil !!! (no prizes for guessing the genre :) ). His first musical experiences were in church where he sang lead in the choir.

Paul Beecham (bass) started his playing career in bands with progressive tendencies, then toyed with pop for some years, but ultimately became dispondent. He tells the story that he was staying round a friend's house in a spare bedroom, and in it was a huge collection of new and old Prog material. Listening to tapes completely turned his life around, he became a born again progger and his thirst to play music was revitalised. 

Wolfgang Kindl (keys) came from a musical family in his native Germany. Wolfgang's main band in Germany was called 'Fake' who he left when he decided to move to England. Wolfgang played me a live 'Fake' CD when he first came over to my house. They are best described (I think) as jazz funk, an excellent groovy little outfit with some nice jazz voicings. He also played live (but never recorded) with a jazz guitarist whose name I forget but who reminded me instantly of Pat Metheny in composition and playing.

Probably most well known of TK is Mark Robotham (synthetic electronic drum soundalikes). Mark's main band was Grey Lady Down who recorded four critically acclaimed albums in the 1990's and played gigs around the world. Early GLD material seemed to be firmly classified as Neo-prog (whatever that is) but it was obvious by the later albums that the guys were attempting more ambitious and satisfying material.

I learned guitar in my late teens, bypassed blues and pretty much cut my teeth listening to Prog and jazz-rock. My first major band, No-One, started life as a punk band but I converted them and we became a sort of PIL / Rush cross. My next main band was called World Mania, again, the material had prog leanings but never really cut it. Band frictions led to a split and I became a hermit in my home studio, recording pieces that would eventually see the light of day on a solo release with Mellow Records called 'Fear Of Fantastic Flight'. 

Eager to play live once more I started looking for musicians and formed a band with Simon called Stuff. This was far from a prog band, more of a 'The Doors' meets 'Pantera' mix of freeform Heavy Rock. Lots of pure fun and just what I needed. The band split in Spring 1998 and I started working on a follow up to FOFF with Simon. 

Via the Internet, I got into conversation with Paul. Our emails displayed a mutual love of progressive music and we decided to meet up at the Whitchurch Festival '98 in Hampshire UK. We got on famously, Paul's vision seem to overlap with mine and working together was the obvious way forward. We played each other snippets of music we'd been working on. At one point, I drove 20 miles back to my home, powered up the studio and overdubbed a guitar track live on to a then 3/4 finished sequence of T.A.N.U.S, drove back and played it to him :). I think this sums up how inspired I was by our chats.Simon was game, so at this point we went hunting for a drummer and keyboardist. Paul discovered that 'Grey Lady Down' had decided to call it a day that summer and contacted Mark. GLD had quite a reputation so we were a bit daunted. Mark has since told us that upon hearing our demos, his first thought was "There's no way I'll ever be able to play that" ...... so he joined.

This brings us up to the latter part of 1998. Finding the right keyboardist was going to take the best part of another year ! I think it's worth going on record to say that, for 4 musicians, all eager to record and gig, to be able to wait patiently for a year to complete the lineup says an awful lot about the character and commitment in the band. It was agony, with so many false leads and dashed hopes. The pressure for all of us to move on to other projects was high but the belief that we were onto something special was higher.  Eventually, an advert in a music shop brought a phonecall from Wolfgang. One meeting with him was enough to know that we'd eventually found our man. We started rehearsals in Oct 99 then moved into my studio over Christmas to record 'Head', and here we are :)

DP - How has the musical style evolved?

PM - I would say it is still definitely evolving, and at a rate of knots. Through necessity, 95% of the material on 'Head' was composed by the time Wolfgang joined last year and his contribution was limited to his wonderful playing and his talent for elaborating upon themes. 

Paul's love of classical and medieval music is evident on 'Ultragravy' which was the track where he contributed the key themes. His choice of bass lines glory in counterpoint and they litter the entire album. 

The remaining tracks pretty much came from myself working with Simon. I guess musically the emphasis was on theme development and hidden complexity. Interplay between guitar and keys is something I love to explore, that and making complex time-sig riffs and passages sound natural. Vocal melody is also a key component and Simon seems to effortlessly write natural sounding parts over the most convoluted of passages. 

Mark, although he tends to downplay his own role, is a powerful yet thoughtful drummer whose playing knits the music together wonderfully.

We are busy writing new material now and all I can say is that the canvas has grown and we are all really excited.

DP - What is the writing process, describe how it works?

PM - Sequencers play a large part in the writing process for us. I've been using sequencers for years, FOFF was written and recorded this way and it's second nature to me now. Paul has also spent some time in computerland and we decided early on that emailing files between us was a logical way to write, at least at the ideas stage. 

Since Mark bought e-drums we are now all capable of writing and rehearsing parts at home. Given that we live 50 miles apart and all have full time jobs any other method would be much more painful. Sequences are developed to a major degree before we start rehearsing the pieces as a band. This allows us time to concentrate more on performance and nuances at rehearsal time rather than " I'm sure we played this bit in 11/8 last week" type conversations. It goes without saying that once the parts are written, the sequences are thrown away and all performances on the album and live are 100% human (with all that that entails :) ).

DP - What are the band's plans for the future?

 PM - Mark wishes to give up music and tour the world in a Monty Python tribute troupe. Seriously, we hope to play some gigs this Summer/Autumn in the UK and possibly overseas too. We are writing new material for the next release tentatively scheduled for Spring 2001, some of this material may be showcased at the gigs then fine tuned for the record. We've been positively encouraged by the initial responses to 'Head' which is great because there are no compromises anywhere. We're playing this stuff because it's what we want to play. Writing wise, the future is looking most encouraging and we're having oodles of fun. Overall I think the plan is to keep on doing what we're doing, have fun, and always play what we want to play.

Thieves' Kitchen were cornered en masse in the nearest pub to Mark's house by Simon and Marisa Hill from prog webzine 'New Horizons' (http://www.elrose.demon.co.uk) in mid May, 2001. Things went something like this...

New Horizons met with Thieves' Kitchen, last Sunday, in a restaurant near to where they rehearse.  After a meal and a lot of laughs the following conversation ensued, punctuated by much more laughter .....

NH: How did sales of 'Head' (Thieves' Kitchen's first album) go?

Mark Robotham: I think we're at about the twelve hundred mark now.  It was always going to be a slightly slower take up than, say for example, one of the Cyclops bands.  Having been down the road of putting an album together and going through a record company, we wanted to keep control of the album ourselves.  You might sell less units doing it yourself but you'll make significantly more on each unit than buying it back from a record company to sell on.  The take-up's been slower than it would have been if it had been pushed by a label, but that's the way we chose to do it...

Phil Mercy: The lack of live dates, as well - we didn't play to support it...

Mark: Those kinds of numbers with no gigs, and having pushed it ourselves, we're very pleased with the way it's gone.

NH: After that album, did the band have a clear vision of of how the next, 'Argot', should sound?

Phil: I don't know whether you'd say it was a clear vision.  We knew what we liked from 'Head' and there were some things that we wanted to do based upon what we felt about it.  We wanted a more organic feel to it ... we wanted to build upon it really ... and we did!

Mark: We also wanted to get some hundred sided dice and roll them to get funny numbers for time signatures...

Phil: I'm not telling you what track I did that on!

Mark: What you don't know is that's actually true!

NH: How do the band go about writing the music?

Phil: That's an interesting one!  Most of us have sequencers or access to a sequencing package, so we put ideas down on them and e-mail them to each other.  People can add to and develop different ideas.  It's all pulled together on the machine in the studio where we finally end up recording it ... that's about it.

NH: Was there a difference in the way you wrote for the first and second albums, bearing in mind that you had extra people on board?

Phil: I think so in terms of the fact that the ideas were germinated within the band with Thieves' Kitchen in mind, as opposed to things that had been in the cooking pot from before Thieves' Kitchen came together...

Mark: A couple of the tracks on 'Head' were written before the band came together, whereas the new album, 'Argot', is all new material.  It's all been composed in the last year.  Phil, being the main writer, composed it with our strengths and limitations, such as they are, in mind.  The way that we work with e-mail etc. gives us more opportunity to bounce ideas around the members of the band and get input from everybody.

Wolfgang Kindl: For me it was definitely interesting to contribute to the composing process...

Simon Boys: It was vital actually that Wolfgang's contribution was full on.  He didn't really get a chance to bed himself in for 'Head'.  He'd only been with us for three months.  It was, learn this... grow an extra pair of hands...

Mark: And when you've learnt it, we'll do an album!

Simon: It was vital, from Phil's point of view, that Wolfgang had a hand in this as his strength on keyboards makes a big difference to the overall sound...

Phil: He has a different musical background, different ideas coming out, different flavours...

Mark: He also contributes the perennial wrong note, which will be found...

Wolfgang: It's not wrong...

Simon: It's jazz...

Mark: It IS wrong, but it's deliberately wrong.

Andy Bonham: A few notes had me checking my sequencer to see if that was actually right!

Wolfgang: I just wouldn't have been happy just reproducing things that had been composed by other people.  I wanted to have a go myself...

Phil: Wolfgang's input was important, both in terms of playing and writing...

Mark: There's a lot of Bavarian drinking songs in there!

Phil: As soon as Wolfgang joined and started playing ad lib during some of the rehearsal sessions it just fuelled us towards new possibilities - even before we entered into sequencer exchanges we started thinking in different and fresher ways.

NH: Listening to the two Thieves' Kitchen albums side by side makes the first one seem much more neo prog in comparison to the new one...

Andy: That's probably more down to the timbres and the general production feel than necessarily the music.  Musically there're a lot of similarities but there were more of the neo-prog sounding synths on the first...

Mark: I would say that as a few of the songs were written well before the band's conception, particularly 'Time' and 'Integrity' - which would probably be the two songs that you would level that accusation towards.  They were songs that existed from a previous band of Simon and Phil's which was not even a prog band.  It wasn't as if we were desperate for material for the album, but they were good songs, songs we wanted to do.  Everything on 'Argot' has been written in the last fourteen months with the cohesive unit in place and I think that that's the main reason...

Simon: I think that the Thieves' Kitchen personality is well and truly stamped on 'Argot' whereas it's not so much on 'Head'...

Mark: For that, the first thing I had to do was learn to play drums!  I was in Grey Lady Down, a great band and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there. But like Bruford (when he left Yes to join Crimson) said, I had to tear up everything I've known and start again; this is such a challenge, a step into the darkness - Bruford still says the biggest influence on his career was Jamie Muir who was an extremely eclectic percussionist.  It was the same when I met Phil and started listening to this kind of stuff; it was, Oh my God! I haven't got a clue...

Andy: That was very much the situation for myself, it took a fair number of e-mails to convince me to have an audition...

Mark: Yes, it did...

Andy: They'd sent me an e-mail - I wanted to try with my own band but nothing came of it, I couldn't find a single musician - so I replied and decided to go for it.  Then I actually received the album, and more e-mails followed...

Mark: Firstly he wasn't interested because he wanted to do his own stuff, then he didn't want to join because he was scared shitless.  We couldn't find a middle way!

Andy: My philosophy was, OK, I'm not going to get this chance again and the more I listened to 'Head' the more I realised that my tastes had been evolving so much that this was their ultimate evolution.  I don't feel that anything I could possibly have done, no matter what band I'm in after Thieves' Kitchen, whatever happens will ever be as interesting or as keyed in to what I like as Thieves' Kitchen.  So I got down to it and decided that if I didn't get into the band it wasn't going to be through want of trying.

Mark: The same for me.  I didn't actually play 'Mute' for the first time until about four months after I'd heard it - because I'd been in a "big" band I managed to bluff my way in and joined the band four months before I had to play any music.  Phil has no idea how scared I was when I sat down and tried to play this convoluted stuff.

Phil: It was strange because it was evolving compositionally as well, certainly I think that 'Mute' was more like what 'Argot' turned out to be, more experimental, whereas 'T.A.N.U.S.' was longer, probably and more thematic, more gentle.  'Mute' is horrible as a musician - it may sound really nice but for a musician it's really quite complex.

Mark: The trouble is, it sounds really easy now!

Phil: Compared to the stuff on 'Argot'.  I got the green light, basically, didn't I?  It really was a question of 'can you pull that stuff off live', and, even if you do, is anybody prepared to listen to it or are you about to bury yourselves?

Mark: The first question here, and this probably goes for the three of us - it was a case of 'well, I want this'.  From what I researched about Andy I knew that once he realised who we were and where we wanted to go he would give it everything he possibly could.  So many people in terms of bass and keyboard players took one listen to what we're doing and it was, don't be silly.  Whereas Andy and Wolfgang wanted to be in on it...

Andy: With a band of this complexity you can't be in it as a weekend job, I see it almost as a second career in a way, as far as the amount of effort that goes into it - if I'm not at work, I'm doing things for the band.  That's probably the reason we work together so well as a band, we all put that much effort into it...

Phil: You have to...

NH: How much input did Paul (Beecham) actually have on the new album?

Phil: 'Escape' was the primary one where he and I sat down and did quite a lot of it in one session.  There are bits everywhere, the whole thing comes together and the thing is, there's no audit trail afterwards - you can't go back and say 'that line's mine'; it just doesn't work that way...

Mark: The middle section of 'Escape' was Paul's.

NH: Now one for Simon.  Why do you not like to have your lyrics printed?

Simon: How did I know that was coming... Basically because I want people to think about what they're listening to and not have it force fed to them...

NH: But surely they have a choice of whether they read them or not...

Simon: True...

Mark: But if you take that logic, why isn't the guitar tab printed...

Phil: That's an idea for the next album!

NH: People can read a lyric and understand it, many people couldn't read a guitar tab...

Mark: But if prog is musician's music...

Phil: As a guitarist, when you play live you have two types of audience: musicians who don't want to associate with the fact that you're a good band and therefore they're at the bar drinking, and the kids who're learning guitar who watch every riff you do - they'd love to see the guitar tab printed - but it's far too pretentious...

Mark: I'd throw the thing on its head and say because Pete Sinfield's lyrics are in 'The Court of the Crimson King', why is it that every band since has felt obligated to do the same...?

Simon: Some of my lyrics can be interpreted more than one way.  My worry is that if people read them they will only interpret them one way and not necessarily open it up and read into it.  On a couple of songs on 'Argot', I purposely made it look like it was going in one direction, but when you think a bit more you can take it different ways, and I like people to think a bit more about what they're listening to...

Mark: It's like when you look at a piece of art, wouldn't you rather look at the painting rather than have an explanation at the bottom...

NH: But do you think that printing the lyrics is really handing it to people on a plate; are you not giving them something to think about...

Mark: No one is going to understand or be able to tap their feet happily along with the material on 'Argot' on first listen.  So why should they have the lyrics immediately presented to them?  If they have to work to understand the music we're not going to apologise for that, why should they not also have to work to understand what the lyricist is saying...

Simon: The way that I write lyrics is that I listen to the themes that Phil's come up with and my lyrics come from the feeling and emotion I get from the music itself.  So I think the listener should take their own interpretation from the feel of the music and lyrics together...

Mark: All of the best albums, in my opinion, are the one that you don't assimilate immediately, but you've worked on them and grown to love them and if people are prepared to do that with music, I don't see why they shouldn't be prepared to do the same with what the lyricist is saying...

Phil: Language, especially written language is limiting anyway because you're missing out on such things as body language.  You try just reading a letter, how many ways can you interpret it?   Hearing the emotion in Simon's voice adds another layer to what he's trying to convey...

Mark: ... that doesn't come across when it's written...

Simon: I hadn't thought of that - one up to Phil!

Andy: A minor point is that some bands will use the printed lyrics simply as a way to mask the fact that you can't hear what the singer's singing.  In Simon's case the diction is fantastic...

Mark: I'd also say, it's not just Simon's decision - it's a Thieves' Kitchen policy.  Of the nine songs (on the two albums), one set of lyrics were written by Phil and one by myself...

Simon: And the set of lyrics on each album that wasn't mine were, I felt, much stronger than I could have written...

NH: What are your individual influences?

Wolfgang: One of my main influences is jazz, also funk rock and fusion.

Phil: 'Argot'...

Mark: You can't be influenced by your own album!

Phil: I only listen to Thieves' Kitchen I'm afraid - it's self replicating!  My influences span loads of years, loads of stuff..

Simon: It does when you get to his age...

Phil: As a guitarist it was stuff like Colosseum II and Alan Holdsworth, Steve Vai and Joe Satriani - those sort of people.  As a writer it was probably Zappa, National Health and UK.

Simon: I don't know what my influences are - my tastes in music cover such a weird, wide spectrum from 60's music like the Kinks and the Beatles to underground ecology bands like Pop Will Eat Itself - and I'm a big fan of the Wildhearts and the Red Hot Chili Peppers.  But I've never introduced my own influences into the music as my tastes are eclectic enough that I can embrace any style of music...

Phil: You don't realise how much you do. It's production ideas that come from that sort of background...

Andy: I'm in a similar boat, to be honest.  I've actually only been playing bass for just over four years now and my musical tastes have been developing so quickly.  I started off with Iron Maiden's Steve Harris; graduated on to the three piece punk bands - New Model Army were my main influence for two or three years.  I've only been listening to prog for the last eighteen months, but I've blitzed it and got everything I possibly could.  I think probably Gary Thain of Uriah Heep is the bassist that stands out as being my idea of pretty much perfection.  Another bassist who's impressed me is Jim Smith of Cardiacs.  The combination of those two sounds and the supportive role were what I was aiming for on 'Argot' and, obviously, I'm still going to be developing that side.

Mark: ...the prog sound of the Andes! (referring to the pan pipe tape playing in the background).  It's a fair point that people don't necessarily listen to what they are influenced by or vice versa.  In terms of listening, certainly, my own tastes are eclectic - from Jewel, who is my absolute idol, through to some really quite commercial poppy rocky stuff.  I went to see Ian McNabb, who was the former leader of the Icicle Works, a couple of nights ago and he was superb, as he always is.  I do listen to prog stuff for pleasure, but it's nice to have a diversity of listening.  

In terms of my instrument: Bill Bruford, Neil Peart, Carl Palmer and the guy with the unpronounceable name who played with Zappa, Vinnie Colaiuta.  But Bruford is my absolute hero, in terms of what he does being not overtly or blatantly flashy, but being so clever and unobvious - I think it takes a drummer to realise just how good he is.  He will always play exactly what you're not expecting him to play - superb.

NH: That's interesting.  You're considered to be a prog band...

Mark: Are we?

NH: People put you into that category, and yet three of you aren't particularly listeners of prog, and Andy's a new convert...

Simon: I'm a new convert too...

Mark: You're an old pervert... (much laughter)

Simon: Seriously, I'm broadening my horizons.  After being in what was almost a mainstream rock band with Phil, I wanted to carry on working with him after that band split up because we just clicked musically.  The way we thought a song should sound when it was written properly was so close...

Phil: The key common factor is the fact that everyone is into inventive parts of the genres they listen to, no matter what.  When everybody gets together to try to be inventive, they come up with the sort of thing we're doing now - and people call it prog.

Simon: I listen to the Holy Bible by the Manic Street Preachers, which I think is probably the best album they've ever done and I like the weird bits, the sampling here and there that pushes home a certain part of the song - that's the sort of thing that really drives me musically.  It could just as well be Boyzone, if they were doing something quirky - I could still like it...

Mark: Many people decide what they're going to like depending on who recorded it before they even hear it, which is a real shame...

Andy: There's an open mindedness about listening to anything in this band.  We know the formulas that we don't necessarily want to listen to, but anything new or that tries to be different...

Mark: If prog is an abbreviation for progressive, then surely that is about breaking ground.  I think that you can only break ground by bringing new influences and new ideas to a genre.

NH: I was reading the interviews that are up on the band's website earlier and I noticed that in one, the interviewer made the statement that prog fans can be very narrow minded.   In view of the fact that you bring so many differing elements to your music, do you feel that the prog tag is damaging?

Phil: I don't really know, I think that it's only damaging in so far as it can tend to limit the communication you've got to propagate your material out there.  That's where it's damaging, when you can only talk about the music through genres - we'd like to be able to transcend that...

Simon: In a strange sort of way, to people of mine and Andy's age prog isn't so much a label ... I was only aware of it through reading Kerrang...

Andy: The very first album that I brought knowing it to be prog was Pendragon's 'Masquerade Overture' - I was on one of my money to burn, spending kicks. It was in a section labeled progressive rock and had a good cover so I thought, buy it - try something different.  In that album I could see the potential that this music offered - it was different to what I'd previously heard. From them on I've had to dig deep in order to get access to prog, it's not freely available but through doing that my collection's grown...

Mark: Frequently too, it can only be musicians that will find prog - that's not right at all - because people who aren't musicians or don't talk to musicians, comparing influences, are not going to be exposed to it because it's anathema to the radio and the NME.  That perpetuates the fact that frequently it is perceived as musician's music.  Unfortunately, I can't malign this country strongly enough in terms of its attitude to this music - we're so much more closed minded than the rest of the world.

Simon: The average sixteen to twenty year old wouldn't know prog if it slapped them round the face!  They just haven't been introduced to it - from that point of view there's still a chance that it could rear its ugly head once more...

NH: So liking or not liking prog is not an issue for many young people...

Simon: Certainly young people that I work with like the music when I've played it to them - they don't know what prog is - they like it irrespective of what bracket it's being put in...

Mark: The phrase progressive rock is an albatross that should be got away from.  In America you will hear the phrase Classic Rock - nothing to do with the magazine - and that perceived grouping is a perfectly acceptable form of music to like; it's all encompassing, going from Rush to Deep Purple to Floyd and within that sphere it encompasses prog without there being a need to identify a separate genre.  To be a classic rock fan, particularly when you're in your thirties, is pretty cool over there.  Here, to be a prog fan is social death!

Andy: I think that the best thing to illustrate that was the top ten of prog TV programme.  That was the most exposure prog has ever had on national TV and, much as it was interesting to fans, I felt it gave such a negative image...

Mark: It was done quite lovingly.  He admitted to being a prog fan but he was obviously taking every opportunity to have a laugh at it, affectionately and lovingly but...

Andy: It gave the impression that it was something around in the seventies that has no relevance whatsoever today...

Mark: I agree with that...

Andy: That was the overriding feel that I came away with...

Mark: I used to be a trainspotter, but I'm all right now!

Andy: I felt that the  worst thing about that programme was that it didn't seem to play much music, and what was played was the bizarre cult drum solos, the strange bits of King Crimson with Jamie Muir in it.  There was probably more of Toyah than there was of King Crimson playing.  A lot of people could have come away thinking that progressive rock was not about the music but about being weird on stage!  Prog is about music and all the baggage, the glitzy capes etc is purely an addition...

Mark: It must be admitted that most prog musicians are incredibly ugly - so it has to be about the music!

We adjourned the the band's rehearsal rooms where we were privileged to hear a live rendition of 'John Doe'.  And yes, they can play the music live - and you wouldn't have guessed that Andy had only been playing bass for four years.  Prepare to be amazed when Thieves' Kitchen play their first gigs later this year...

Marisa  20th May, 2001

'Sea Of Tranquility' interview - Autumn 2001
Peter Pardo talks to Phil Mercy

Look out folks, there’s a new kid on the block. England’s Thieves Kitchen has just released their follow up to last year's powerful debut Head with an even more refined effort, titled Argot. The band's penchant for lengthy songs, complex time signatures featuring searing instrumental interplay, and catchy vocal melodies, have seemingly piqued the interest of the progressive rock community. Argot is chock filled with all that is “prog”, from the blazing twenty minute opener “John Doe Number One” to the intriguing closing epic “Call to Whoever.” In fact, not many bands these days are brave enough to record a 65- minute CD of only four songs, all over twelve minutes long, in hopes of holding the listeners interest. Thieves Kitchen however pulls it off quite admirably, by combining modern sounds with classic influences. Guitarist Phil Mercy, the band's spokesman and “all-knowing entity” when it comes to Thieves Kitchen, shared some thoughts with me recently on the band's history and smoking new CD, 'Argot'.

Sea of Tranquility: How did Thieves' Kitchen come together?

Phil Mercy: The summer of 1998 was where the story began. Mark Robotham (drums) was playing the farewell gig with Grey Lady Down, whilst Simon Boys (vocals) and I had started working on material following the break up of 'Stuff'. Paul Beecham (woodwinds) had rediscovered his love for progressive music and had started looking for like- minded musicians.

Paul tracked me down over the Internet and we met at the Whitchurch festival that year. We had a great old chat, swapped ideas and influences, and generally came to the conclusion that we should work together. Soon after we went looking for a drummer and contacted Mark, who decided he liked our rough sketches and joined the throng.

The band then spent the best part of the next year hunting for the right keyboard player, all the time writing material for what would eventually become 'Head'. After many false starts, Wolfgang Kindl (keyboards), who had just moved to England, answered an advert in a musical instrument store and eventually joined in September 1999. By February 2001 we had recorded and released Head, a phenomenal achievement for Wolfgang who had to learn all the material and add his own character to the pieces in that timeframe.

When, in the summer of 2000, it became obvious to Paul that the gigging side of TK was going to be too much for him to take on, we all decided a full time bass player was needed and started looking. Mark tracked down Andy Bonham (bass) and eventually persuaded him to rehearse with us. He joined in October 2000 and we started recording Argot only 2 months later. Again, it took a tremendous amount of effort on Andy's part to achieve this. So here we are...

SOT: Can you talk about the band's songwriting process?

PM: Each member has access to a PC based sequencer program called Cakewalk. All of the material starts life as an idea jotted down by any of us on the computer. We'll each develop ideas as far as we can individually and then e-mail them to another member for development. This tends to be a pretty creative approach and many initial ideas change drastically before becoming the final recorded version. Eventually, the tracks are arranged and recorded in my home studio. It's interesting looking back on the material and it is often difficult to track down where the initial ideas came from. We share writing credits for all material for this very reason.

SOT: What are the major differences in songwriting, instruments used, style (if any) between Head and Argot?

PM: I think there is a definite progression from Head to Argot. Some of the compositional ideas explored on Head in such tracks as “Mute” and “T.A.N.U.S.” have been built upon for the tracks on Argot. Another key difference was a move towards a more, how can I put it, 'organic' sort of sound. This impacted on the songwriting in terms of theme development and dynamics. This direction affected instrument selection too, such as the use of real woodwind, a more traditional guitar amp sound, a more intimate vocal sound, etc.

SOT: Some reviews have stated that the band is sort of like a prog-metal version of Jadis, while others call the band a great throwback to the classic prog bands of old. What are your views?

PM: Prog-metal? Well, I definitely think we have a powerful, almost metallic edge to the music and certainly there are a few riffs around, but Wolfgang's up-front approach prevents us sounding too metallic. I think we were all a bit puzzled when a couple of reviewers cited Jadis as a reference. Aside from the fact that Simon sings powerfully yet melodically (as does Gary Chandler), I see little similarity to be honest. I really quite like what I've heard of Jadis but then again I like the Beatles too and they don't sound like us either. I'd like to think we've picked up on the pioneering, experimental spirit of the prog bands of old but there's been so much great music since those guys were at the height of their powers that it would be silly to start from exactly the same place. We've had punk, metal, post-rock, etc, and so many virtuoso players have come along to stretch the boundaries since the 70's that there are far more possibilities now - the canvas is broader.

SOT: How has the response been to Argot?

PM: Wonderful, thank you. I think a lot of reviewers have realized that Argot is an album that requires time to digest, and have indeed invested that time before putting pen to paper. The reviews I've seen so far have all been extremely encouraging. We feel as if there's been a huge vote of confidence in what we're doing. There was a period of about 6 weeks after we'd mastered Argot where I sat back and thought, "I wonder how people will react to it?" Certainly I'd got so close to the material, the writing, playing and recording that it was almost impossible to appreciate it as an audience would, with a fresh pair of ears and no preconceptions. For a while I thought we'd gone too far, too fast, but the reviews and sales so far have allayed that fear, somewhat thankfully!

SOT: The band really differs from some of the modern so- called "neo-prog" groups out there, featuring much more complex instrumentation and aggressive songs. Has this been the band's intent from the beginning?

PM: We certainly wanted to challenge ourselves compositionally and technically, for sure. Primarily though, we all wanted to write and play music we enjoyed, with no limitations and no compromises. The idea of targeting a market, or creating a new niche is simply alien to us. I've been in that position before and you really can't make good music when you don't believe in it.

TK differs, I believe, in that there is a group of musicians with differing influences that have found common ground to explore and the result, perhaps not surprisingly, is a little different to anything that's gone before. I guess we've taken a risk with this approach, we could have ended up with some ghastly raga-jazz-fusion-concept album, but I think it's worked for us. Certainly we're all enjoying ourselves and that's the main thing.

SOT: The band mentions National Health, Hatfield and the North, Bruford, UK, Gentle Giant, Yes and Jeff Beck as influences. What are the band's favorite albums by these groups, and why?

PM: Golly. There are loads more than this list for sure. Andy's record collection alone looks like 'The Golden Rock Years Collection, 1970 - 2001'...

For this set of bands, my personal choices would be: Hatfield And The North - 'Rotters Club' ...ditto ... 'Mumps' raises all the hairs on my body in spine tingling gooseflesh every time.

Bruford - 'Feels Good To Me' & 'One Of A Kind' ... enter Mr Holdsworth.

UK - 'UK' ... classic stuff, perhaps I'm odd in liking 'Mental Medication' best. I remember working out the solo to 'In The Dead Of Night' as a youngster, only to be told that he made it up fresh every night.... a life lesson there!

Gentle Giant - 'In A Glass House', 'Freehand', 'Power and the Glory' etc. This was Paul's biggest influence, and a band he introduced me to at Whitchurch in '98. I'm a true convert now.

Yes - 'Yessongs', 'Close To The Edge, 'Relayer'. I loved this lot ever since my older sister played me Yessongs when I was very young. I still think that is one of the best albums ever in so many ways, all those wonderful compositions played by a virtuoso band who'd come to fully understand the material. Classic.

Jeff Beck - 'There And Back', 'Guitar Shop'. A master of his craft.

SOT: Are there any current groups that the band admires?

P.M.: I think we all admire any of the bands who persist in playing this kind of music. Prog has to be one of the hardest genres to take on. On the one hand, 'Prog' is a dirty word amongst the mainstream rock press and is a euphemism for all things pretentious, old, self-indulgent, etc. Mention 'Prog' to anyone in the high dollar side of music-biz land and you'll see them collapse in hysterics whilst proclaiming 'Did the pixie riding the dragon steal your flower mask?” On the other hand, those that listen to prog tend to be an incredibly discerning audience, often with a high level of understanding of what you're trying to do, and they have expectations to match. Prog fans demand excellence and rightly so. A difficult job for a musician then, but I think there's a lot of decent groups around at the minute that are doing the job well. If from a prog perspective we define admirable as "a band that has decided that it knows its musical agenda and is pursuing it no matter what", then I would list the likes of Thinking Plague, Cardiacs, The Underground Railroad, Platypus, Ozric Tentacles, Radiohead and even Spock's Beard and the Flower Kings.

SOT: Are there any tours in the making for the band?

PM: We're busy rehearsing at the minute and with luck will organize a series of gigs this year and into 2002 too. Having recorded 2 albums now, we are all bursting to get out and play the material live. The main problem seems to be a reduction in the number of gig venues available, in England especially. Luckily there are some excellent festivals around the world so all is not totally lost, but the days of organizing a string of small intimate gigs that spans a country in a decent timeframe have all but gone I think, to everyone's loss.

SOT: Where does Thieves' Kitchen want to be in 5 years, and where does the band think Progressive Rock music will be in that span?

PM: There are no definite plans beyond gigging and a sketched-in timeframe for the follow up to Argot at the moment. In 5 years time - and indeed 10 and 15 years time - I hope we will still be playing the music we enjoy and continuing to challenge ourselves. I think there will be an underground appreciation of prog for at least the foreseeable future. I don't think you can ever rule out an upsurge of interest in prog (or even, gasp, a revival), but who knows. Who can say whether a band like Radiohead won't turn the corner and morph from 'OK Computer' into something more like 'Larks Tongues'. Personally I doubt it, but never say 'never'...

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